Why Autoimmune Diseases Are on the Rise
If you feel like autoimmune disorders have seemed to be on the rise recently, you may be right. Over the past couple decades, we've seen skyrocketing rates of autoimmune disorders such as lupus, multiple sclerosis, celiac disease, type I diabetes and so on. What could be causing this recent increases in autoimmune disorders and allergies? Today, we talk to Professor Cezmi Akdis all about the environmental factors that might be responsible.
You can find part 1 and part 2 of the list of emulsifiers mentioned in this episode.
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Juna Okay, Eddie, I'm going to say a bunch of words, and I want you to tell me what they all have in common.
Eddie Oh, I feel like a neuroscientist is coming on. Okay. Ready? Okay. All right. All right. I'm good. I'm good. All right. Sorry, guys. I'm in the zone.
Juna So seriously.
Eddie I'm in the zone. What do these words have in common? Okay, ready? I got I got it, yeah.
Juna Okay. Type one diabetes, Crohn's disease. Lupus, psoriasis. Inflammatory bowel disease. Hashimoto's disease.
Eddie I think you're going to be asking, like, fun stuff. But listening to all of those words, I am a doctor, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that we're talking auto immune diseases.
Juna Ding ding ding. And you're like a bell. Yes. You put in a bell. Yeah. I don't know if you've noticed this, but in the past few decades, it seems like there's been this massive increase in autoimmune diseases 100%.
Eddie And you see it more and more.
Juna And something else that has also been on the rise recently is something that affects all of us in New England a lot, especially at this time of the year, something that affects me a lot and that is allergies.
Eddie Oh, so you're not crying? It's just I never see you. I've never seen you in a cry. So I don't know where that came from.
Juna Oh, people do think I'm crying sometimes, though. Like, people be like, are you crying? I'm like, no, I just feel really bad. Allergies. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eddie Okay. So allergies. Yeah. We do have a rise in allergies, right? And a rise in the autoimmune disease.
Juna Well, it turns out that those two things might actually be related. And the reason might surprise you on today's episode, what is causing this mysterious rise in autoimmune diseases? How does it relate to allergies? And what are we doing every single day that is making these issues worse? And how can we fix it? I'm Juna Gjata
Eddie And I'm Doctor Eddie Phillips, associate professor at Harvard Medical School.
Juna And you're listening to food. We need to talk. The only health podcast that you are guaranteed not to be allergic to. And now let's take a moment to shout out one of our favorite reviews of the week. I'm very excited for this one.
Eddie This one is I love this. This is all about you. Yeah, that's all about me.
Juna That's why I love it. I chose it. All right, guys, so I say to everyone, if you want yourself, shout it out. Compliment me in the reviews because I'm the one that chooses the reviews.
Eddie All right, well, I was on this episode also. It's got five stars. The shoutout goes to PTC bubble PTC like parent teacher committee.
Juna Where I do.
Eddie All right PTC. Thank you for writing the latest episode with J. Kenji Lopez out, finally pushing me to take a minute and join the Patreon club and to write a review. I am looking forward to learn more about the spices and cooking, and can't wait for the follow up episode. I have been listening for years and love all the information. Now as a Patreon, I'm bingeing on all the past Fantastic Talk episodes. I've been missing out on so much. Who wrote this? This is crazy.
Juna I say, okay, remember the very last time we were like, it's like this review was written by AI by us guys. Same thing with this one. I don't know who you are PTC bubble, but thank you. Thank you so much for writing this review you guys.
Eddie And they conclude, thanks for all the information and keep it coming with your help. I continue to discover lifelong habits to help sustain a healthy body with manageable exercise and diet habits. Thank you.
Juna Wow. Oh, oh. So, guys.
Eddie I think we should keep on doing this podcast because people seem to be enjoying it.
Juna Thank you so much guys. Truly, all the support on the Patreon goes to helping this podcast go forward. So we really, really appreciate everyone who chooses to support us. And if you would like something free to support us, leave us a five star rating and a review. Very, very helpful as well. It helps other people find the podcast. It makes us feel good and we get a chance to shout you guys out because you guys are awesome. And now on to the episode. Welcome back to another episode. Today we are talking to you, Professor Chasma Actis, who is the director of the Swiss Institute of Allergy and Asthma Research and editor in chief of the journal allergy. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 3 Great pleasure to be with you.
Juna So we've been getting a lot of questions recently about autoimmune diseases, which is what prompted this episode. But I know this has been something on my mind for a long time because autoimmune diseases were in my family and I've heard about them for a long time. So can you describe the recent trend that we've seen in autoimmune diseases and allergies? When did we start to see an increase, and what has that increase looks like over the past couple decades?
Speaker 3 Thank you. That's a very important question. The real pandemic size grow started around 1960s and after 1960s. We are seeing an increase in asthma and atopic dermatitis allergic rhinitis. At the same time, autoimmune diseases, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis started to increase. When we come to the time of, for example, the, Germany's reunification in 1989, the prevalence of allergic diseases in East Germany was about 1.5 to 2%, and this year only around 10%. This increase was catching up with West Germany in ten years. So intense East Germany became to the levels of West Germany. That means we are not talking about too much genetics, but we are mainly talking about environmental influence and environmental changes for the increase of allergies and autoimmunity.
Eddie Can you just maybe step back a little bit for the listeners and for, me, who went to medical school many decades ago to sort of talk about the commonality of why what seemed to be very diverse illnesses, for instance, multiple sclerosis is going after your nervous system and type one diabetes, your endocrine system, and asthma, pulmonary. What's the commonality? And maybe kind of, almost like, how you might talk to a patient about what is an autoimmune disease. And then we'll get into and why is it almost a pandemic?
Cezmi So around 1960s, we are first recognizing increased asthma hospitalization in the UK and increased type two diabetes. And in Australia, New Zealand, Canada. We are seeing these increases reported in around 1965. The commonality here is about chronic inflammatory diseases that affect many organs and that are including allergies and autoimmune diseases. When we talk about autoimmune diseases, we are talking about diabetes and fatty liver, autoimmune hepatitis, liver cirrhosis, commentator practice, multiple sclerosis, systemic lupus. And we are talking about also colitis, inflammatory bowel disease and celiac as autoimmune diseases. And you are interested in auto immune diseases more. But I would like to mention also another group of diseases that increased around the same time autism spectrum. It was not a real disease of problem about 3040 years ago, which is now currently in high prevalence. Parkinson's disease Alzheimer's is going to younger age and becoming more prevalent, and stress related psychiatric disorders in a general term. And chronic depression is also increasing at all.
Eddie Times and are those by giving the list. Are those implicated as having some sort of etiology or cause that's autoimmune everything from the autism to dementia and and depression.
Cezmi They are not typical autoimmune. Autoimmune disease means that the immune system reacts to our self tissues and causes inflammation in our organs, like the joint makes rheumatoid arthritis. If it is in the brain, it makes multiple sclerosis. If it is in the pancreas, it makes diabetes. And the main thing here in the neuropsychiatric conditions is to have, small inflammation, micro inflammation in the brain and in the peripheral nervous system. And this is, linked to inflammation in the various epithelial values. So the epithelial barrier theory is bringing together these diseases in 1960s, total number of chronic non-communicable diseases the 20 to 30 million. Currently after six years we are talking about 2 billion patients. It's a huge increase. Around 100 times increase. In the meantime, the world's population increase by two times from 4 billion to around 8 billion. So this 100 times increase is the point of discussion of today's podcast.
Eddie So the word that I am focusing on is the barrier. Let me let me explain this. As I best understand that for us to be beings in the world that are constantly confronted by all sorts of pathogens, we need to have barriers like our skin or the lining of our gut. And then, even with those barriers, there's going to be some, oh, pathogens, bacteria, etc., viruses that enter into our system. And we would not survive very long without an immune system, a robust immune system with multiple layers of of protection. And that's all good. However, take us through what happens when the body turns on itself, because you've identified the tissues that you get the inflammation. But what's gone wrong when our immune system is going after our own tissues?
Cezmi So the ethical barriers are protecting our body from environment, and the environment is not the same environment of, 60 years ago. It was, reported recently that there's 350,000 chemicals have been introduced to our lives after the chemistry revolution, which happened in 1950s. There was bulk production of chemical products, and they were introduced to human and animal lives and to the nature. Some of them became pollutants. But, when we were starting to use them, there was not much concern on health issues. The chemicals that are apparently very toxic were stopped because they were killing and making it damage. But, humans and also scientists missed an important point. There was some chemicals that were making a small amount of inflammation, which was not easily diagnosed. It was, below the threshold of a disease, and it was not so severe. It was quite mild. It was not making us sick in the beginning. But accumulation of this inflammation was, making autoimmune diseases and allergic diseases. So our epithelial cells were there on the, on the surface of our body. The was kidneys. We were the most affected cells from this environmental change. And they are not touching to each other anymore as strong as before. And they are becoming leaky. They are allowing the passage of allergens, pollutants and microbes. There is clear data that these chemicals are, some of them are the reasons for the development of autoimmune diseases. Let's talk about multiple sclerosis, for example. Multiple sclerosis is a very typical brain disease, and it affects our motor system that we cannot move our arms and legs as if we want. In 2019, in Stockholm, there was a big outbreak of multiple sclerosis, like an infection. It was so common in the January months and in the early winter. And at that time there was a huge pollution in Stockholm and the people started to analyze what is the link of this pollution to multiple sclerosis. And this is around 18 papers linked to air pollution and multiple sclerosis published so far. And they say that when we are inhaling polluted air with particulate matter, with ozone, with these are exposed, with cigaret smoke, then our lung cells, epithelial cells and lung, the standard textures become activated. And they sent other cells to brain that these cells make inflammation in the brain. So inhaling polluted air makes multiple sclerosis to start and also to exacerbate. This is just an example, but there are many such examples.
Juna I think that's scary for a lot of people to hear, because we have no control over our pollutants in the environment. Is there any evidence that being taken out of that environment? So being in a place that's cleaner makes the autoimmune diseases go away? Or is it once you get it, you have it for life?
Cezmi Yeah. For the patients it's possible to avoid exacerbation by air environment control by food control. I just can't. Here's the list of substances that are quite dominant, affecting our immune system. We have laundry and dishwasher detergents, and then a material called surfactants. It used in cleaners, detergents and toothpastes and sodium. The rest of it is quite toxic to epithelial cells and quite inflammatory. So recently, a paper was published from the Mayo Clinic and they are following up with this study. And toothpastes have about 3%. So the most of it.
Juna And is this an ingredient you can look for on the ingredients list of these products or would it not be listed?
Cezmi It is listed. It is this that you can find it and you can check it. And there are also to check these ingredients. Very good quality apps. And here I would like to talk about a little bit on, packaged food. The very major thing that affects autoimmune diseases. And this packaged food is introduced to our lives in around 1980s. But after 2000, there was a big change in the food industry and packaged food. It came to the shelves, with a shelf life of, six months to one year. And before 2000, the shelf life of, pizzas and sauces was about ten days maximum. And, the food industry had to change the shelves upside down every, every week. And there was putting new food source, new sources, kind of the what we are seeing is the same pizza, the same sauce, there every the shelf life of one year. How did it happen? It happened by putting some additives in the packaged food. And these additives are two main groups. One group is antibiotics to avoid bacteria growth or fungal growth. The second group is the addition of main emulsifiers. And food emulsifiers are keeping water inside the pizza inside the source, and there is no layer of in the sauce. And there's no water coming out of the pizza. And for one year it looks, quite fresh and eatable. That's a big change in the food industry. But now studies are claiming that this, kind of food changes our microbiota in the gut and changes our epithelial barriers in the gut. That causes inflammation in the gastrointestinal system overall. But this inflammation doesn't stay in the gastrointestinal system. And, cells and several, active molecules, proteins that are called the cytokines and chemokines, they migrate to inflamed organs. For example, a very nice study showed that if you eat this packaged food, if you are exposed to these emulsifiers cells coming from the gut tunnel system, go to the joints and make rotator arthritis more severe. So this is, quite exciting, of course, seeing these kind of findings.
Eddie So we, on food, we need to talk a talk. I think with increasing frequency about the microbiome and about the gut, and maybe just drill down a little bit more to talk about how the gut becomes leaky and is it just the inflammation from the emulsifiers? And then these pollutants get in. And I guess the related question is, and what can we do and what recommendations do you have for your patients?
Cezmi So what happens is that when we are exposed to these toxic substances, our epithelial cells get inflamed, then they get inflamed and they this is a response to an injury. And this inflammation releases certain molecules. These are called chemokines. And alert means this. There's an alert. Let's say our bronchitis produces when they are exposed or the gut it they give an alarm. They are saying that, look there's a toxic molecule that I am being exposed and my barriers are becoming leaky, I cannot hold the body is strong against the environment. Some of the microbes will go into deeper tissues and immune system. Please comment. Healthy. Let's work together to side with this situation and let's try to avoid this inflammation together. So then the immune system goes to the, area where we are exposed. If it is skin, it makes dermatitis. If it is gut, it makes colitis or intestinal inflammation. If it is the respiratory system, it makes chronic sinusitis, for example. So the immune systems activation is quite important and plays a very important role here. To avoid that. The microbes don't go to deeper tissues and don't make the inflammation much worse by causing abscesses, more infections, and other diseases.
Eddie So the advice that you give to your patients, then I'm sold on not having packaged food as best you can to avoid the emulsifiers. Do we need to avoid all the plastics that, even if the food were fresh, you know, is is that an issue? What's a practical next step for our listeners?
Cezmi So I think we should talk about the general problem of microplastic and then other plastic in the world. Starting from 1950s, around 9 billion tons plastic has been produced. 9 billion tons is, quite big. It's like a mountain, big mouth in size and around 1 billion on plastic is in the nature currently and being continuously degraded. And this degradation is causing microplastic in our air, in our water, in our food. So microplastic and a smaller size of plastic has been identified in very important places of our body. For example, in the amniotic fluid in microplastic was found in another study. It was found in the pericardial effusion. The pericardium is the area just around the heart, keeping the heart quite intact and also away from the trauma. And then just two weeks ago, it was published in the coronary artery plaques of myocardial infarction. There was plastic and microplastic, and none of plastic is ingested by cells. It is activating the immune system, it is modulating the immune system and it is opening the optical barriers. And it's also very small plastic angstroms size. Very, very small plastic is binding to certain receptors. So the plastic pollution has become a very important part of climate change, global warming. And it's also very important part of the optical barrier theory. That explains. So what I am saying to patients is that when you are opening boxes, don't do it inside your room, open it outside and don't inhale what comes out from the plastic box. Don't use plastic packages in your food and don't use plastic. This is old and bad quality plastic. There are marks at the back of the plastic and the numbers one, two, three, four, five. If you are using, you should use the quality five plastic that is very minimal degradable. But if you are using quality three plastic which is degradable and which affects your food and which is degraded to your water or beverages, then you are continuously being exposed to this plastic which becomes inflammatory in your organs.
Juna I'm listening to this in horror because I'm I'm thinking about how my.
Eddie Daughter's tearful at this.
Juna I know my parents because my parents, like, reuse plastic bags a million times to like, not waste plastic bags. Anyways, I'm going to. Yeah, I'll be letting them know. Can I ask you a question? When we were talking about the dietary things inflaming the gut, I remember reading online that sometimes going gluten free can help autoimmune diseases, or going dairy free, or not having red meat like those three things seem to be associated with worsening autoimmune diseases. Is there any link between those things in autoimmune diseases? And do you know why?
Cezmi So there are certain inflammatory substances and also certain inflammatory food. And it is suggested in many diseases, many of non-motor diseases, to stay away from dairy products. The molecular mechanism is not well known. But, this suggestion works, for example, for chronic prostatitis. Stay away from dairy products a very much it's a risk for patients. And also, gluten is inflammatory and gluten is has also changed a little bit. And also, breads and confectionary or cakes have gluten plus certain additional emulsifiers. Like tartaric acid, derivatives. One of them is called datum datum. And datum is very inflammatory and enhances the effects of gluten. And it also induces oxidative stress to the epithelial cells and damages the optical barriers, activates the immune system. So there are such, image files. The list of images of files is long if you have a place to. Publish it. I can send you the list of image files using USA and also Europe is. There is a list of around 100 image files that are introduced to our lives in the last, mainly last 20, 30 years, some of them in the last ten years without too much concern on health effects. So we have to understand that the inflammation concept has changed. You are talking about micro inflammation, which is not detectable with routine tests, but there are now many assays that we can detect this micro inflammation. We can detect up to 5000 proteins in our circulation or in body fluids. And within this we can detect the inflammatory molecules that are circulating in our body. And this is the new concept that we are understanding. And we are looking at things. And this is this micro inflammation is very high in obesity diabetes. So this is the metabolic diseases part and autoimmune diseases part. And they both increase the gut barrier and defect. And then the gut period defect happens. Then the micro inflammation happens with the inflammation in the gut simply stable system.
Eddie So first off for the listeners and for you doctor at this we will post the list of emulsifiers on food. We need to talk accom along with the podcast so that you can listen and learn. The question I want to ask is that I am trying, in my mind, to break down the things that I have control over and things that I don't have control over the larger environment. All humans, all animals, are exposed to some of the things that I'm already resolving. And you and you know, you and I can talk about this on the talk about what personal behaviors I might change in terms of storage of food at home, etc. but if everyone is exposed roughly to the same thing, the numbers that you are citing are frightening in terms of the spread of the autoimmune diseases. But what are the behaviors of those who do not end up with the autoimmune diseases? So I know from clinical work with patients that if you do some basic labs for inflammation, you might see, you know, changes, but the person doesn't manifest an illness. So what would you say to your patients? What would you say to our listeners about, we're not going to change the quality of the air that we breathe directly, but here's what you could do to reduce your, your risks.
Cezmi So if we talk about 8 billion world population, we are seeing that around 2 billion are having these kind of chronic noninfectious diseases. That means one fourth of the population is getting sick, but the other three fourth are exposed, with almost the same air molecules. That's a very important point, of course, just to remind you, about 60 years ago, these diseases were less than 1%. And currently with the same, even with the same diagnosis methods, they are going up to 20%. So there's a very significant increase in these diseases. And we are not seeing the plateau yet. And during Covid time when people were exposed to disinfectants, mainly the increase was very significant. So this, baby's infantile eczema increased to more than 20, 30% in the first year of covet in, the studies from Ireland and from London. So what makes the poison go to 14th 15th century? Paracelsus in Switzerland has said there is no poison. There is dose. So the dose of exposure is quite important. If someone is exposed to various alcohol that, make defects in the optimal values and also at the same time are exposed to a host of spice at home at the same time, is allergic to gospel at the same time as food allergy, and at the same time it has a genetical tendency to develop to diseases. These people, finally, these diseases and these are the ones that we are seeing. But the body has many factors, to avoid the inflammation. And some people who, by chance can avoid this inflammation, having a strong genetic background. So this tendency also plays an important role.
Juna Okay. I just have so many questions now. I'm just I'm horrified. Do we know if having air purifiers in your house, if you have a high quality air purifier, can also help to decrease some of the toxins in the air that we're breathing in?
Cezmi Yes, that's a very important point. And, if there's air pollution, here we are experiencing Saharan dust from the Sahara, from the desert. There is dust coming and it's going up. To stratosphere and it to very high level. Then it comes down after the Alps when it passes the and comes to those area to Zurich area. And this is very inflammatory. And if any person has lung diseases chronic lung disease they have to avoid this. They can avoid in two ways. One of them. They have to clean in a house if they have opened the windows by mistake. And if they feel bad and they need these cleaners or the other options to wear masks, that's also quite important, to avoid the pollution from the respiratory system.
Eddie And for the listeners, you're talking to us from Davos, Switzerland. So I haven't been. But you're up in the Alps, and even then, there's no escape from the the dust from the Sahara. One of the points I wanted to pick up on is that we live in a pathogenic means that there's pathogens out there that are going to potentially make us sick. A quarter of the population is made sick. We're focusing on those who are exposed, but not sick. Is the protection coming from not being a, quote, inflammatory state? In other words, on our show, we almost every episode get around to exercise. Both weightlifting and cardiovascular exercise. Is it the behaviors of, for instance, eating a healthy diet? So avoiding these problems, having a healthy microbiome, getting enough rest and exercise to, to reduce the inflammatory state, is that the level of protection and and if so, what should we do?
Cezmi Yes, it's very important. And when we look at the factors to avoid inflammation, we can talk about, certainly, exercise and we can talk about, healthy diet. Healthy diet. What does mean a healthy diet? There's intermittent fasting, for example, part of the healthy diet, avoiding toxic substances, with food like, and, beverages with, carbon dioxide, for example, and, avoiding, packaged fruit and food with emulsifiers. Food with additives. And, when we go to the supermarket, we are ourselves in our family. We turn to the correct side and go to the vegetables and try to eat vegetables as much as possible. Fresh vegetables. And what I can say in general is, to have, good exercise and, fresh air, good quality water and a good quality household inside house. How do we clean our houses? How do we clean our, windows and the glass and the floor, in our house is also very important. So many people stopped using, sodium levels of food containing cleaners, and they are cleaning, with vinegar or just with water. That's all fine. And many people stop washing their babies, with sodium, all sulfate containing baby shampoos, and they are washing with just water is also sufficient. You can wash your baby only with water. You don't need to wash with, shampoos. Many people losing their health, a washing their hands with soap and food containing shampoos three times a day. But, you can wash your hair with only water. You don't need to use these toxic molecules. So the awareness part is also quite important. And currently several studies are going on all around the world.
Eddie And if you send us a list of things that you've been talking about, we'll post that as well. On food we need to talk.com.
Juna Could I also ask you about, makeup products, lotions like cosmetics, perfumes. I know you briefly mentioned them. Is there a lot of evidence that these things are breaking down the skin barrier? Because I know that'll make a lot of, the people who love those things listening. Not know. So have you.
Cezmi Some of them? Yes. It depends on what they contain. If they contain, alcohol, certain. Also food and other surfactants, they can damage the skin and people know it. And some people who are very sad having sensitive skin don't use them because they are causing inflammation in their skin. So these kind of cosmetics and skin cleansers is also something that we should put in our radar, and we should be aware of what they contain and whether we should use them. Or you should wash with a simple olive oil soap or only with water and, clean, using the cleansers. We should not contain any, strong surfactants.
Juna And my dad would be so upset with me if I didn't ask this question because he's asked me this for the past couple of weeks. He keeps asking me, is there a test to see if you. You have leaky gut or does that not exist yet?
Cezmi We have a test for skin, which is well-established. It is a device looking at the skin by an electric impedance meter. And this device is available. Some patients buy it as a pen to their homes and some doctors. Dermatologists use it for skin, for the gut. We have, some, complex tests that we can understand this, but it is not yet available, for public usage. But one should be looking at journal metabolic markers. There are some measurements that one can think that, I may have a barrier problem in my gut because I have too much belly fat. I may I should stay away from carbohydrates. I can I should keep myself in a vegetable diet. I should do intermittent diet. So people are hearing is still the awareness. And doctors are also suggesting their patients, these kind of things nowadays.
Juna And can I ask you one final question, which is what are the biggest things you change in your own personal life after your work in this field?
Cezmi We are staying away from surfactants in the detergents, and we are staying away from, professional dishwashers and rinses. We didn't mention it to rinse it in dishwashers, household dishwashers and professional dishwashers. Has. I'll call it oxalate, and I'll call it oxalate is, very toxic, down to 20,000 times dilution. And in an enormous, dilution factor of rinse is much less service. So it remains on the cutlery, on the glass. And, it causes inflammation in the gastrointestinal system. We are staying away from this, when you are doing laundry, and then you are doing dishwashing and rinsing one more time with water. It's very effective when we are not using household cleaners too much at home. We are just cleaning with water and we are not using packaged food at all. And we have changed our diet, to more vegetables and healthy diet. When there's air pollution, we stay away from outside. We don't do outdoor sports. And, in the gyms, when we feel the smell of plastic, we don't go there. So, the list is not a very long list of 100 things that are maybe ten things which I mentioned. If people do this, they will certainly stay away from these, toxic substances and may have a more healthy life.
Juna While.
Eddie Doctor, shows me act. Thank you so much for sharing your, well, your life's work, your passion. The research that you've done and giving us some sobering.
Juna Thank you. Yeah. Sobering.
Eddie But but, sobering advice about, you know, how we can improve our lives by what we eat and how we handle the air and and the cleaning products and really very much appreciate your work. And joining us today on food. We need to talk.
Cezmi Thank you.
Juna Thank you so much to Chesney Arctis for coming on today's podcast. We will link to his work on our website. If you want to hear our bonus episode with Chesney, where we talked even more in-depth about all the topics we talked about today, including the plastics that we are using in our daily lives, the detergents, etc. that are causing this increase in allergies and diseases. You can head to food we need to talk.com/membership or click the link in our show notes. You can find us on Instagram at food. We need to Talk. You can find me on Instagram at the official Unite and Unite Yada on YouTube and TikTok. You can find Eddie.
Eddie Actually going through my house, reading the labels on some of the cleaning products that we have. I never read those before. You know.
Juna Food We Need to Talk is produced by me and distributed by Pyrex.
Eddie Our mix engineer is Rebecca Seidel.
Juna And we were created by Carey Goldberg, George Hicks, Eddie Phillips and me.
Eddie For any personal health questions, please consult your health provider. To find out more, go to food. We need to talk ecom.
Juna Thanks for.
Eddie Listening.
