The Science of a Happy and Meaningful Life ft. Dacher Keltner
If you’ve ever wondered what science has to tell us about being more fulfilled, feeling more joy, and living a good life, this is the episode for you. Today, we talk to happiness researcher and professor Dacher Keltner, from the University of California Berkeley and founding director of the Greater Good Science Center. How much money makes us happy? Is it harder to be happier today than it used to be? And what can we do to live a more meaningful life?
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Guest
Dacher Keltner is a professor at the University of California Berkeley and founding director of the Greater Good Science Center. He is also a best-selling author and host of the Science of Happiness podcast.
Check out Dacher’s new book Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life
The Takeaways
3:16 - How can we define happiness?
5:33 - Is there something about our modern environment that makes us more unhappy than we used to be?
8:08 - Materialism and happiness.
11:16 - Does more money lead to happiness?
16:50 - What are some science-based happiness practices?
21:55 - The importance of prosocial relationships in promoting happiness.
30:00 - Science of humor.
38:53 - The importance of gratitude.
43:22 - The science of awe.
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Juna: So I know we've just finished the big New Year's rush.
Eddie: That was exhausting.
Juna: That was a lot. It was a lot, guys.
Eddie: Now, maybe the parking spots at my gym will be opening up, right?
Juna: I mean, that's the only place I have, like, New Years being over. But I thought that today we could do a deeper dive into the reason that we set all of our New Year's resolutions and goals in the first place.
Eddie: I know to be able to write a really motivational Facebook post for our friends to see.
Juna: Exactly guys to be the Facebook inspo for everybody in your contacts. Natalie Huh? No, I think a lot of us set goals because we think it's the way to make us happy, right? That's why we want to eat better or like, be a certain way, have certain things I need to spicy, right? I need to be happier. So I thought, why not dive into what science says about it?
Eddie: You mean there's a science of happiness, guys?
Juna: There's actually a science for everything. Like, literally everything has a science. So on today's episode, we're going to be talking all about the science of happiness, what truly makes us happy, and how can you start living a happier, more fulfilled life to day? I'm Yuna.
Eddie: Jara. And I'm Dr. Eddie Philips from Harvard Medical School.
Juna: And you're listening to Food We Need to Talk. The only podcast that has been scientifically proven you already know. To make you happier just by listening. So welcome to today's episode. Today we have a very special guest, Professor Dacher Keltner. Do you want to just introduce yourself and kind of say your title, what you do just all that stuff?
Dacher Keltner: Yeah. I'm Dacher Keltner, professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley. I do a lot of teaching. I have a big lab called Berkeley Social Interaction Lab that studies happiness and emotion and power. And I'm faculty director of the Greater Good Science Center, which is a great resource for health and well-being and have a Science of Happiness podcast as well.
Juna: Amazing. So I think the science of happiness is something that we should all be interested in because I think it's everybody's goal in life to be happy, but not really something a lot of us spend time doing. So no, at least for me. Right.
Juna: You actually have.
Juna: Yeah. Yeah, I know. I was going to say, I spent all my time being like, if I look like this, if I can do this, if I can buy this, I'll be happy then. And it's like, kind of seems like a topic we all strive for circuitous leave but don't really focus on intentionally.
Eddie: Can you actually just give us some grounding here and define happiness? Is it joy? Satisfaction? Is it accomplishment? Connection? All of the above?
Dacher Keltner: Yeah. No, I mean, terrific comments, too. I mean, they I think we you know, historically we've had different ways in which we pursue happiness together. Right. You know, you could think about religions as containers of practices and ways of being together that helped us be happy. And people have turned away in some sense from religions in this modern era. So people are hungry for like, how do I find this? What is it? How do I practice it? You know, to your question, it and it's, you know, this is happiness is complicated. It it really changes in its definitions across history. So in ancient Greek times, happiness was more about having the sense that fate was smiling upon you. Mm hmm. You travel to East Asian cultures, and happiness is more grounded in social duties and roles and the like, as opposed to Western European cultures. So it's a really complicated thing to define, but I really think about it in terms of feeling good about your life and feeling like your life has meaning and purpose. And then we measure it scientifically, believe it or not, and this is kind of embarrassing. There are 99 measures of happiness.
Eddie: I got 90.
Dacher Keltner: Total disagreement about, you know, which ones are most important and they fight about it and make each other and happy either side.
Juna: But.
Dacher Keltner: You know, I think very simply at dinner created I think it's five items and it's. Do you feel good about your life? Mm hmm. On a regular basis, like you said, are you feeling some joy and happiness and contentment? Are you not feeling too much stress? So it's this sense of like feeling good about your life at an evaluative level and then on a more micro moment level. Am I feeling a nice, healthy repertoire of positive emotions?
Eddie: I feel good just hearing you say that.
Juna: And so one question I thought of while you were talking, because happiness has been a topic of conversation, obviously for thousands of years, probably since humans have been around, I'm guessing. Do you think that the way our modern lives are set up are actually set up selectively to make us more unhappy? Like, do you think there are things about our modern environment that actually promote unhappiness?
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, You know, I mean, that's that is one of the defining questions of the science of happiness, which is that, you know, if you look historically, a lot of good, with the exception of climate crises, has happened in the human condition right in the last 100 years. We live longer lives. Our life expectancy is much higher. We have more comfort. We have devices that help us get food and prepare food more quickly. We have tremendous access to art and music, etc.. So you you would expect, given those changes historically for us to be happier. Mm hmm. And in fact, most Americans have in the last 60, 70 years have lifted up for many out of poverty, were more educated. And yet and this is a lot of people call this the kind of the modern paradox. People aren't more happy then than they were 50, 60 years ago despite these changes. And to your point, you know, that suggests that we really think carefully about what is it about modern life that's undermining my happiness. You know, the illusion of materialism that buying things makes us happy. Spending too much time on screens, screens tend to diminish happiness a little bit. You know, Americans work harder today than they did 40 years ago, significantly harder. And we're not with friends or having picnics and the like. So that is an act. A very of inquiry is like, What are we doing wrong? You know, how can we return to the core of happiness?
Eddie: And have you looked at you? There are so many things that you've done in your lab. And have you looked at the kind of you talked about materialism or material wealth? I'm when I'm not podcasting, I'm seeing patients at the VA in Boston. Yeah. And I'm just reminded that I'm seeing folks that have first served their country and there is all sorts of positives that have come from that. But there's a preselection for folks that are of lower means. And when I start asking them questions about, you know, so what they have or what they do, they have sometimes like such limited means and yet they're so enormously happy. And the simplest thing, they'll go on, you know, I ask people, so what is it that makes you happy or what's your purpose? And they go like, as long as I can fish. And they would talk for hours about fishing. So have you done work on the materialism, peace and striving and.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, you know, I really push that hard when I teach human happiness. Right. And there are broad survey data to your observation, Eddie, that we can't help it be more materialistic today than we were 70 years ago or 80 years ago. Just the ads and the, you know, the pop ups when you're online of buy this and the Kim Kardashian's and the Instagrams and just all the obvious stuff. But regrettably, even though we laugh at it, we go, I would never be influenced by Kim Kardashian, You know, but Americans have gotten more materialistic, right, As have a lot of people around the world. And and materialism doesn't bring you happiness. There are no studies that show when I buy something, I get happier. There are a lot of new economic studies showing when I do things to pursue the materialistic life, I undermine my happiness. Our own lab has thought about it. It's really very much convergent with your observation, which is that ironically, the more wealth we have, it often disconnects us from deep sources of happiness. So with more wealth, people feel less kindness towards other people, which is one of the very basic pathways to happiness. And interestingly, Paul Piff, my collaborator, has recently found with more wealth, I feel this wonder in all about the world right now. I know that one really stirs me and I'm doing a lot of research on all right now, and that suggests that as we immerse ourselves in this material life, we lose sight of the wonder of the world. So real deep concerns for the perils of of consumerism, materialism and privilege.
Eddie: So having an awesome new Tesla is not it's not that kind of all that you're talking about, right?
Juna: Not at all. And, you know, it's so funny.
Dacher Keltner: We we actually surveyed people in 26 different countries about all like what what amazes them. No one mentioned the Tesla. No one mentioned their smartphone. No one mentioned tech. They they mention other people fishing, like you're the person you're working with, you know, Eddy, being in nature, being with other people. So. So it's it's what I love about the science of happiness is that it really provokes us, right? Like, wow, how could I shift my life? To you and his point like, and what can I do?
Juna: So when I was an undergrad, our intro site class was taught by Dan Gilbert. I don't know if you've come across his research, but it's like a big high notes research. Okay, cool. Yeah, he's awesome. And one of the big things I remember, like taking away from the class was that he said that your happiness scales with your income up until about 80,000 or something. 70, 80,000. And then after that, there's, like, no correlation anymore because basically, like, all your basic needs are met, which with inflation, perhaps it's higher now. I don't know. But, but it was really interesting cause I was like, we like why are we, why are we all trying so hard to get the highest paying job to like, have the biggest house? So this if it's like not actually making anybody happier in the end.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah. You know, and that finding is a famous finding by two Nobel Prize winners, you know, surveyed I think about 5000 people. Nice sample of participants. And you summarized it really nicely. You know, you know, at about $75,000, your emotional life, the well-being on a daily basis kind of it asymptotes are flattens out. So with $400,000 those stresses enjoys are really no different than if you make $75,000. So money doesn't alter your emotional well-being. You know, I should know. You know, this is how science works. Matt Killingsworth, a very prominent scholar in the Science of Happiness, has found, in fact, money does matter at every level of income. So there's a little bit of debate around that, that finding. But I think the broader point is money doesn't matter as much as people think. It matters a lot for the really poor. Mm hmm. As Eddie was suggesting, man, if you can't eat or pay your electricity bill, that you, you, your happiness is compromised. But once you're lower middle class, middle class and above it, it's a small effect, right? It's not as is consequential as being with people you love or or enjoying a great piece of music or getting out in the woods. And we grossly overestimate the power of money for well-being. And it's. You know, having taught this for 25 years, I feel like this is a central dynamic in our world. Struggles. Right.
Eddie: Is right. Right.
Dacher Keltner: You know, consumerism and carbon emissions and disconnect from people we love, etc.. So it's it's important.
Juna: But do you think that people get so fixated on money and objects specifically because they're easy to measure and it's kind of like something concrete you can look at like, I have more of this, therefore I'll have a better life. Like, why do you think it's so ingrained?
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, I think that we have moved to this phase and David Myers has written about this and others that, you know, and you can think about like the greed is good thesis in the movie Wall Street, which was based on Ivan Boesky graduation speech in the mid eighties of like, you know, and you think about this ideology in our culture of, you know, free markets and capitalism and making a lot of money as a moral value, as a life value. And I know I sound like a Berkeley guy ranting and raving right now, but but yeah, regrettably, young people adopt that value, you know, over other kinds of values that would give them meaning in life. Of course, we have to pay our bills. But I think, you know, the the elevated stress, anxiety, depression young people face today, which is at epidemic levels in the United States, in part because of the pandemic, but also in part because we're not asking this question you're asking of like what really matters in life. You know, we work really hard, make a lot of make money, but what really matters.
Eddie: So I'm fascinated by the picture of you teaching happiness that you can Berkeley. So I've got a few a few questions there. One, not to get too jargony, but learning objectives for the course. Are they supposed to come out happier or just know the science, like what's on the curriculum? And then my most pressing question, how do you get graded?
Juna: And Professor Keltner, I did this course.
Dacher Keltner: And I joke with him like, Man, I'm sorry if you get a C in the happiness class or a D, it doesn't mean you're not going to be happy.
Juna: Yeah.
Dacher Keltner: You know, there is an amazing science of happiness and it is thrilling to map happiness and joy and awe and gratitude and compassion onto the brain and neurophysiology and culture and the like. So it's a cool science. It's one of the more exciting sciences in the social sciences to develop. So they learn about that. But to your point, Ed, and this is I feel this surfacing in our conversation, I tell my young people like what I care most about in terms, of course, objective is you develop a life philosophy about happiness. Hey, man, you know, we used to have these classes in universities. It's like, what's the point of life? What do you what do you hope to do in life? What do you find meaning in? They've fallen away somewhat fewer people taking the humanities where we learn a lot about this and I bring it back to them. I say, you may be a free market person. You may be a service person, you may be a, you know, an art beauty person. You may be a social justice person. Find your path right, and use this science as a form of inquiry. And so that's our primary course objective is like, wow, you know, take on the different philosophies of happiness, look at the science, try some practices, some reflection exercises, and see where it takes them. Unfortunately, not everybody gets A's.
Juna: And, you know, good. I don't think they really care if they feel like.
Dacher Keltner: Hey, I got a little boost in happiness. And yeah, you know, I think the class tends to make people a little bit happier.
Juna: So can you talk about what are some of the most common practices that students try that make a substantial difference in their happiness might be?
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, it's interesting. As I've gotten older, I teach happiness to every imaginable audience, like federal judges, medical doctors, people in hospitals, tech individuals, government officials, athletes, etc. Because like you said, you know, one of the oldest questions we have about life is what makes me happy. You know, what makes the people around me happy? So people care about it. And as I've gotten older in this teaching. People are like, you know, science is great. Okay, that helps you with your immune system or your brain. But what do I do? You know, what do I write? How can I go out and, like, get my teenager to do something that'll make them happier? So, yeah, I every class I teach, I teach happiness practices, right? So one set of them is about cultivating positive emotions like awe and gratitude and love and amusement and contentment. We just did a class practice called Look at the Sky, where you just have people literally get outside and spend a few minutes looking at the sky, you know? And what does that look amazing.
Eddie: What does that cloud look like to you?
Juna: And this is the stuff that's possible in the beautiful weather of UC Berkeley territory. And you would literally get frostbite if you were doing you.
Eddie: Know, I think I think you can enjoy the winter clouds here in Boston.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah.
Eddie: And they're beautiful and they all look different to different people. It's like a Rorschach test.
Dacher Keltner: And in fact, I just had somebody who was like, I'm in an urban environment. I didn't think this would be interesting, but I saw how, you know, the urban lights and the the mist and so forth. So you can do it anywhere. You know, Ralph Waldo Emerson had one of his great epiphanies in Massachusetts on a very cold, frosty day. So let's just get outside and look and pay attention. Another class of practices is about social connection. Right. Like, you know, I worry young people have lost the art of social connection. They're looking at cell phones all the time. So, you know, initiate conversations with friends, ask them good questions, listened attentively and empathically, man, that's power. Ask them what they're stressed about and listen. Right. And then the third class of practices is probably be what your audience might have anticipated, which is how do I calm down? You know, breathing exercises, meditation exercises, body exercises. So it's been I'm a horrible meditator. I got thrown out of my first meditation class. Yeah, you know.
Eddie: Thrown out.
Juna: Yeah, I did. You know.
Dacher Keltner: My I was in college and I went to this class, and the teacher is like, We're all going to chant together. I am a being of purple fire. And I started laughing and I was like, I'm not a being a purple fire, but people want to practice this stuff. They want to make it actionable.
Eddie: So when you began this discussion on this, you just said, I teach happiness at all of these different places. Yeah. Did who used to do that before Professor Keltner came along? Did did we have to teach happiness back? Oh, yeah. Four years ago.
Dacher Keltner: You think about people in spiritual communities, obviously, you know, and there's a whole scientific study of religion in spiritual communities that suggests they are holders of practices for happiness. We sing together, we move together, we contemplate together. We have big ideas. We look at beautiful stained glass windows. It's interesting to me how in schools we used to have more education about virtue and character, and that's starting to return into educational contexts. That's really those are really lessons about meaning, you know, what's our purpose? So yeah, so I think that I think the reason there's been such energy around the science of happiness is because there's a gap. Coaches teach about happiness. So we, we need these different forums to get people to think about what matters to them.
Juna: So can we kind of dive into a few of the things you talked about? Yeah, specifically, I'm very interested in the pro-social kind of socialization stuff because yeah, we talk a lot about like diet, exercise, reducing stress, improving sleep, all these things. And something I think we don't touch on enough on this podcast is specifically the importance of relationships. So when we talk to researchers that like go out into hunter gatherer tribes, they talk about how like one of the biggest health behaviors you can take from these people is they're together all the time and they have such a strong sense of community. And I don't know why like that just seems like the least important thing in my mind when I'm when I'm writing down like my goals, it's like, eat better, exercise more, but you don't anymore. I think it would make such a big difference more than these other things to kind of talk about that.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, what a terrific question. You know, I was just with this documentary with The Lion people up in the Himalayas and kind of indigenous Himalayan people that pre-date the arrival of Buddhism in Bhutan and Tibet and the like. And they their life expectancy is almost like Americans, life expectancy. But man, when I visited it, it was like freezing cold. Not a lot of food, very hard work. Not a lot of medical care and their life expectancy is pretty robust and it's because they're together all the time. Wow. And one of the great things about the science of happiness is we now have really remarkable evidence that suggests, just as you intuit, that these social practices, the connection, pro-social practices, are as important to your physical health as a good diet. Not smoking, not drinking, hard alcohol and exercising. There is a review of about 300,000 participants. Famous study showing that if you have strong social connections and you feel pro-social towards them, it gives you ten years of life expectancy.
Juna: That's crazy.
Dacher Keltner: It's mind blowing. Right. And and now we're starting to figure out the neurophysiological processes that account for that strong social connections. Strengthen your immune system. They reduce inflammation in their body. We're very concerned about diet, An inflammatory diet. Well, social connections reduces the inflammation of your body. It reduces cortisol. It elevates a stronger cardiovascular profile, etc.. It increases vagal tone, very important nerve in the body. We study in my lab at Berkeley. And so, you know, it tells us that, you know, you folks in the physical health world really need to be thinking about the mind, too, and the social connections. And that's why, you know, Dr. Vivek Murthy, our surgeon general, said emotional well-being and loneliness are his central aspirations for his legacy, for health of the U.S. is to promote process, civility and community.
Eddie: He wrote a book. The book is called Together. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Juna: Do you think that part of the reason why the pandemic was so hard for people is because it made that social interaction we already had even less.
Dacher Keltner: So it was devastating. It was devastating. And the data are in you know, there's a publication out of Lancet depression, anxiety up 30% around the world, very hard on 20 year olds, you know, in their twenties who really need to be together to form their identity. Yeah, the isolation. I mean, what a massive experiment in almost solitary confinement. You know, and I don't want to use that phrase lightly because it's a very serious phrase in the criminal justice system. But I felt it personally like I was missing. What buoys me and gives me joy is the social connections. Zoom was no substitute, you know, and worldwide people felt it very consequentially. And I think we'll be seeing the consequences for years to come.
Juna: And why is Zoom or social media not a substitute? Like when you talk about the science of touch and why that's so important. And then also the other things that separate kind of video interaction from like real interaction.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah. You know, we have work in our lab and showing that it really is in-person contact that matters. You cannot get the benefits of social contact digitally. And and I think that that will be a finding that stands the test of time. I always think about things evolutionarily, right? So our defining strength was our sociality. Yeah. E.O. Wilson We are this hyper social species. We do everything together and modern life. To your observation earlier, you know, has taken us away from that. You know, we spend more time alone and not with the people we care about. So it really matters. And so what that means is we have big chunks of our brain that process the face. When you receive touch your skin, billions of cells, 6 to £8. It's almost like a brain encasing your body processes that that information sends the signals to your somatosensory cortex to tell you, wow, I'm getting touched like this. It activates the immune system in the like. Our ears are sensitive to certain vocalizations. All of that is compromised by digital mediums, right? And you can't touch somebody through a digital media. You know, I'm sure they're working on some robot and that will stroke your back, your neck, you know, And that's that's just not going to do it.
Eddie: And the touch is that of another person. It's not okay. It's not like.
Juna: Like know.
Juna: Your own.
Eddie: Back. Now, in the height of the pandemic, the acupuncturists and our hospital were kind of lacking anything to do. And they started doing acupressure over the web, which involves, you know, you can push on certain spots and get a certain reaction, but it's like, I can't imagine it's nearly as good as laying on of hands.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, that would be my bed, too. And so there are a lot of reasons. Why? In these digital connections, there's many good things we can do with them, but it doesn't give us that deep social contact that's good for health.
Eddie: We'd love to have you do your own break Docker.
Juna: Do the honors for us.
Dacher Keltner: I'm so grateful you're listening to us. We'll be right.
Juna: Back. Amazing.
Eddie: And we're back. So one of the things that I felt very buoyed by in one of your podcasts was someone was talking about humor and saying that make a joke, even if it's not funny, it's it's still helpful. Like it?
Dacher Keltner: Yeah. Well, let's hear your best dad.
Juna: You know, come out of it started.
Eddie: With. All right, so I'll start off with with. Well, this is like a kind of a bad dad joke. When I go to get my patients down the hall, I walk down there and I. And I ask perfunctorily, How are you? And I say, like, how are you a doctor? And you say, Good. And usually then you'll say, you know, how are you? And I hear you and I go late and it's most often true. Oh. And then they say, It's okay, Doc, you know, you're working hard. And I go, Well, you know, thank you. I guess what? My interest in humor. Well, it goes pretty deep. One of the things I love working with Yuna and doing this podcast and talking to you is that we're all laughing together, that we're sort of creating the humor as opposed to, oh, I don't know, I'm getting a little bit bored at home. I just want a little distraction. So I put on YouTube of a Saturday Night Live routine and I and I laugh maybe alone or with my wife. And it seems like not as much as laughing with another individual. So my first question is just sort of the the general. What? Yeah, what is humor? How does it work into happiness and and the connection?
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, it's interesting because there are themes in the science of happiness that have occupied more attention, like gratitude, mindfulness. And then there are these newcomers to the field, if you will, that take a little bit more persuading of the field to say this is essential to happiness, You know, always one. Mm hmm. And now we've got a lot of good data on that. And another one is humor. I can't explain why people have been more ambivalent about including that in. But I think humor is fundamental to human happiness. Humor is the ability to make light of serious conditions or circumstances. It manifests in all manner of of human universals, from telling jokes to fools in court societies to satire. You think about the great Saturday Night Live or Stephen Colbert or Jonathan Swift or the like banter nicknames play in childhood. And it's interesting. One of the defining features of mammalian species is they play. So there's something about this class of species called mammals that humor is fundamental. We goof around, we play and the like. Wow. And I think you got it right, Eddie. That what it does is it it brings us together and helps us make light of hard stuff in life, be it trauma or stress or a mistake that we've made, which we joke about. And there are remarkable studies. One of my favorite being the study of laughter. Not only does laughter calm your body down, but reflexively if you study the acoustics of laughter. Mm hmm. People laughing together, their laughs start to sound the same. And it's amazing. And it's one of these things we're like, Oh, we're just laughing, We're goofing around, you know, or whatever. We're waiting in line to go see a movie or whatever, and we start laughing, and next thing you know, it's like we're all together and it's this fast track to togetherness. So, so many reasons to getaway from the serious and promote humor and laughter and silliness and fools, you know?
Eddie: Have you gone for a laughter yoga class?
Dacher Keltner: I've never done that.
Eddie: So my my memory of the one that I went to was that everyone lay down on the ground. One person laid across the room, the next person put their head on that person's belly and everyone's on their back. And so you sort of zigzag along, so everyone's got their head on the other person's belly. And the first person was instructed to simply go, Ha, which made the other person's head bounce a little bit. And then the next person went like, ha ha. And yeah, sort of propagated and just like you said, within. Even if they said do not laugh more than your, the number people just started like, you.
Juna: Can't help.
Eddie: It, you just can't help it And everyone is just giggling within seconds. No. And I thought what a job. Teaching laughter, yoga. This is.
Juna: Great.
Dacher Keltner: Not bad at all. And you know, it's interesting because there's this new movement in the science of you might even call it consciousness, which is what's interesting about human consciousness as we share it. Mm hmm. Right. Young kids will start sharing awareness of other people's minds. Michael Thomas Aiello's work. And and given that and it's fundamental to being a human and being part of a community. And cultures to share minds. And given that notion, there's a lot of interest right now in thinking about how do we develop that ability to share minds with other people. One is music, and music tends to synchronize our minds and get into the same rhythm and see the world in the same way. And humor is another. When you really understand humor, you are really part of a culture or a community.
Juna: I was going to say when I was growing up, so I don't know if you know this Professor Keltner, but I'm legally blind. So when I was growing up, I was like a shy kid, I would say naturally in elementary school. But I realized pretty quickly that because I was blind, I, like had to find a faster way to, like, instantly make connections with people or else, like, they just they don't know how to respond to you. They that, you know, because you're different. They don't know, like what questions will offend you or whatever. So I became so outgoing very purposely from like ages 10 to 12. And I remember like watching kids that people would think were funny, like watching the kids that were like the class clowns and trying to figure out, like, what they were doing that was funny so I could copy it. And so, like, I think developing a sense of humor was one of my biggest tactics to more easily make friends. Because it was like if somebody was laughing with you, they were like automatically so much closer to you than if you just started talking to them.
Dacher Keltner: MM What is laughter sound like to you? Like, what did you, how did you understand laughter as a child, given this?
Juna: I just thought that the kids that made people laugh, I thought were the coolest kids. Like, I didn't think the kids that, like, went out drinking were cool or like, Yeah, or got the best grades or whatever. I thought the greatest compliment you could get was getting somebody to laugh at your jokes like that. To me, it was like, they really like you. So I think it became such an important part of my personality. I mean, even now I have a TikTok where I post like mostly fitness videos, but even when embarrassing things happen to me at the gym, I'm like, Yes, this is going to be the funniest video. And it's like.
Juna: When you.
Juna: When you make fun of yourself, it's like, I don't know. I think it's just so much more fun than being upset by things that happen.
Dacher Keltner: Isn't that extraordinary? And I think a lot of our audience I that really struck a chord with me. You know, like that moment when you just you're making mistakes or recognizing your flaws and you're like, oh, this is going to be a funny story. You know, what a what a terrific human capacity to be able to do that. And we have studies, you know, we study kids at a basketball camp and the better they were at joking about things and creating laughter, the more respect they had from their peers. Oh, okay. Yeah. So and I'm so glad you brought it up, Eddie, because the happiness literature can get a little sanctimonious. Like, let's just be grateful and compassionate and kind. I think we need to raise the profile of humor, too.
Eddie: All right, So I have to ask you this. The average medical conference, people walk in, they expect the speaker to come out and be dry as toast. Yeah. And it is so easy to make people laugh in that circumstance. So people come up to me like, oh, you should try stand up. I'm like.
Dacher Keltner: No.
Eddie: Because everyone expects you to be funny and they're just not expecting. I want I want the lowest bar possible that I can just sort of tiptoe over. So in these happiness conferences, are people expecting to laugh or is it just dry science?
Dacher Keltner: It's that's a great question. And even more perhaps problematically, are people unhappy and, you know, miserable and.
Juna: You know.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, you know, I, I, I admire the field. I think it's done some good for the world. I do think, you know, because it has certain biases like all scientific disciplines, you know, we haven't thought enough about ecological well-being. Does our happiness help the happiness of other species? And we haven't thought enough about the absurd and humor and satire, you know, which are just really deep veins of healthy human cultures.
Juna: Oh, interesting. I wanted to ask you a question about gratitude because, yeah, guys, I've tried so hard, so I feel like every single class my major in college was cognitive neuroscience. So there was a few kind of happiness classes that I took out. And basically, I think the only concrete thing I remember was like making gratitude lists. It was like, be more grateful, make gratitude less blah blah. And I feel like I've started this practice multiple times in my life where I'll be like, I'm going to write down three things I'm grateful for each day and I've done it, and I do it for maybe five days and I never do it again. I never feel like it adds anything to my life. And the only times I can really remember gratitude, like viscerally making a change in my happiness was when I get injured and I can no longer do all the things that I normally do. And then when I. Get better. And I'm like, I'm never taking that for granted again that I can use my foot. It's awesome having two feet. I love it, you know, And it's like, but then I forget. Of course you forget until you get injured again. So can you talk a little bit about how we know gratitude is so good for us and how can we practice gratitude in such a way that like we feel it and it actually sticks? Asking for a friend, obviously.
Eddie: Yeah.
Dacher Keltner: You know. Well, your observation points to a bigger issue that I really believe is important in this field, and I teach at Berklee, which is there are many pathways to happiness. Right? And we have been working in Berkeley. Just thinking about the positive emotions. There are ten or 15 positive emotions, and I really encourage students to sample the menu of Pathways to Happiness. Some people find it easy to practice gratitude, others don't. Some people it's all about humor. Some people it's beauty. Some people it's on the transcendent right. So are compassion or contentment. In East Asian cultures, they're much more focused on contentment and serenity, as opposed to excitement and and enthusiasm. So it's really important, given massive individual differences in the human mind, to find what works for you, right? Gratitude tends to be a good one. We consider gratitude to be a self transcendent state where you're really focusing on others. And along with gratitude, we put compassion and kindness in that bin and are really just being in reverence of vast things that are mysterious. Gratitude is feeling reverence for things that are given to you. It has all kinds of benefits. Practicing it can lead to boosts and happiness for weeks. Change your cardiovascular profile. Reduce inflammation in the body's immune system. Make you see, you know, later, after practicing gratitude, you kind of look at your day and you're like, Oh, I feel kind of grateful for that. You know, it's raining right now, but I kind of like the rain, you know. So it has a lot of benefits. On balance. What you talked about, the three good things approach is one of the most widely tested gratitude letters writing gratitude letters to somebody. Those are powerful. I love there's a Ed Guy aide at Berkeley Di Edu. We are site at Berkeley that has these practices. You can go deeper and like, you know, just look at your day and think about all the things that are kind of set up for you to from electricity to this way that we're communicating to the food you got to who made the food or where it comes from that can promote gratitude. I really like even going deeper and thinking about like you hinted at, which is like, what's something that you almost lost that you still have? You talked about like making a mistake physically or what have you. Or getting an injury. Just go deep and think about. Wow. You know, I still have this capacity to appreciate things and to bring something to the world. Where did that come from? You know, how did my family give that to me? How did this historical moment give it to me? In indigenous practices? And a lot of world philosophies encourage you to think about origins of things. Why do I care about this? You know, where does this come from? How did my grandparents give this to me? And you can get really deep with gratitude. So take your practice.
Eddie: I just wanted to share, because I know you've done some consulting with Facebook and Google. And at the VA, they set up a gratitude app. Yeah. So I could send a message. And we encourage people to send messages. And then when you got one to send them to several other people, sort of a gratitude chain. And I'm just so happy to have such gratitude to report that we crashed the system.
Juna: Wow.
Eddie: And it turns out I think we had only bought like 10,000, you know, gratitude per day and was like, make it more. And there was a wave of gratitude that abruptly ended. Yeah, you've mentioned or and I'm provoked by the idea that if you had given me a test before this conversation, write down all the positive emotions you can think of. I would not have included or.
Juna: I would have never thought of.
Eddie: But I know you have a book coming out. Coming out, or.
Juna: It's going to be awesome.
Eddie: Huh?
Juna: What is it?
Juna: What is it like to have many sorry guys?
Eddie: So maybe a few words on what our does in terms of our connections. As you've spoken about our physiology and of course our health and how.
Juna: And why did you get interested in it? Like, I'm just curious, like how you even thought of studying or.
Dacher Keltner: Thanks for asking that, you know, Unit. Eddie I was. I was kind of brought up to study. Ah. My mom teaches literature and romanticism and poetry and Virginia Woolf and the literary world that was devoted to the sublime. And and my dad was a visual artist, is a visual artist. And, you know, early in his career, he loved Goya and Velasquez and a lot of, like, awe inspiring artists. And then I grew up in a really kind of a wild time historically in the late sixties, in Laurel Canyon, lot of on in the air, if you will. There's always on the air and there's all around us. And but my parents really, you know, I'm very grateful because they they were like, what's most important is not money. It's wonder and and meaning. And so that got me to studying or in the deep sense. And then in the more proximal sense, you know, I study human emotion from this Darwinian physiological evolutionary perspective. And there just was no research on all. And as Einstein said, it is the cradle of art and science. I mean, it's hard to find somebody who doesn't think it's fundamental that human the human condition. Descartes thought it was one of the basic emotions. And so 15 years ago we started studying it in nature and in music and in solar eclipses and in art museums and all over. And yeah, first surprising finding is what you guys are pointing out, which is that although people think or is really, you know, linguistically is kind of related to fear and that is that really is a linguistic thing. Etymologically all traces back to words that were 19th century about fear and dread. Today all is really positive. You know, in most parts of the world, it's it feels really good. It activates the vagus nerve. It is associated with oxytocin release, a lot of pro-social processes. And then you know why I got into it to really and wrote this book or is I really feel we're at a moment where we need more or, you know, the young people I teach in that you may interact with, you know, we've become too materialistic, we're stressed, we're depressed. Too self-focused, way too self-focused, and all gets you out of yourself. As Jane Goodall said. Or is this feeling where we're amazed at things outside of ourselves? And so when people feel on our studies from nature or other people's kindness or or music or visual patterns or big ideas or meditation, they're there their their sense of self quiets. They feel more accepting. They feel like they have stronger community, they feel more altruistic, they feel more rigorous and creative in their thought. And so in writing this book. You know, in summarizing the evidence, I was like, wow, You know, for today's times, there's almost nothing better than going and finding some ah, and it's all around us.
Juna: I was going to say, I feel like growing up I experienced all a lot more than I do as an adult. And I know, but yeah, because the way I've engineered my life. But it's like I wake up, I go to the gym, I go to work, I go home, I cook dinner, I go to sleep. Whereas like when you're a kid, you're like, Whoa, how does this work? Wow. That's so unlike the few experiences in my adult life where I feel like I get that feeling of being like a child. Like, I started learning snowboarding two years ago, and I'm obsessed with snowboarding, and it's like one of the funniest things I do. I do. And it's, I think related to that being that you can connect to that you had when you were a child.
Dacher Keltner: Yeah, You know, and I think your generation is returning to that quest for All right. And I see it in the kind of things rock climbing, snowboarding, surfing, game nights, dance societies, etc., yoga, my generation, you know, I'm a generation older, lost sight of it. A lot of the survey data suggest. And so I am encouraged to hear that you're in search of the things that bring you. And it's a nice antidote to these where we began the problems of materialism and and is this era. So I'm excited about its prospects. And what's really striking, you know, you guys have been pressing me on like, well, how do you do this?
Juna: You know.
Dacher Keltner: And actually, you know, our studies find people can find a 2 to 3 times a week pretty easily. You don't have to hop on a plane or become, you know, a harikrishna. You can walk outside and look at the sky. You can listen to a piece of music with intentionality. You can, you know, go do a dance class or sing with other people. A lot of easy pathways to us.
Eddie: So we will announce a food we need to talk or contest.
Juna: Our.
Eddie: Response and get back to you with yeah, with having people do that because I think that's such a beautiful way to end this that we can go out and seek and be cognizant that we are being struck by are and it's to our betterment. So I'll be the first to say thank you so much for your time and for your career of work and your podcast, and it's a pleasure, even over Zoom, to get to know you for a little while.
Dacher Keltner: I agree. I'm actually feeling the real goose bumps pleasures of real social contact in this company. And you've got.
Eddie: People that that are studying that and that's great.
Juna: Yeah.
Dacher Keltner: Thank you.
Juna: Thank you so much to Professor Keltner for joining us on this amazing episode. We will link to his podcast, The Science of Happiness, as well as his various books on our website, Food We Need to Talk. Dot com You can find us at food. We need to talk on Instagram and you can find me @Theofficialjuna and Juna Gjata on YouTube and TikTok and you can find Eddie.
Eddie: Seeking or at least 2 to 3 times a week.
Juna: Oh Food We Need to Talk is a production of PR X.
Eddie: Our producers are Morgan Flannery and Rebecca Seidel.
Juna: Tommy Bazarian is our mix engineer with production assistance from Isabel Kirby McGowan.
Eddie: Jocelyn Gonzalez is executive producer for P r X Productions.
Juna: Food We Need to Talk was co-created by Carey Goldberg, George Hicks, Eddie Phillips and Me.
Eddie: For any personal health questions, please consult your personal health provider to find out more. Go to food. We need to talk. ICOM.
Juna: Thanks for listening.
Juna: Go be awesome.
Juna: That was awesome, right?
